Cheater Research

[hsifeng]

And by that, I mean, "I am going to ask a question and pray that better minds than mine have the answers out there on the interwebz".

I think this is a sailor. I think this is a continental sailor. Can anyone tell me which part of the contient? I can't make out the inscription.
 

"What's its gots on its feets, Precious?"

In alternate "news", I think I found the garb I would like to make my husband if we end up doing some 'later period' wear:



I don't know what I love more; the black and white Pludes, the trim on the jacket pockets, the hat with dingly gold bits on the plumes or the red in contrast to the rest? Hard to tell. Maybe I like it all...

Comments

[jillwheezul.livejournal.com]

The place name looks like Sesislandt (?) Could you send the links of the few before and a few after it so I can maybe see them in sequence. Sometimes that helps the identification.

On the jacket - I love the detailing. It reminds me of Austrian loden jacket detailing of the earlier 20th century.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Here you go!

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00011752/images/index.html?seite=113


http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00011752/images/index.html?id=00011752&fip=205.155.151.30&no=&seite=112

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00011752/images/index.html?seite=111

Another sailor (?): http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00011752/images/index.html?seite=115

then...

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00011752/images/index.html?id=00011752&fip=205.155.151.30&no=&seite=116

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0001/bsb00011752/images/index.html?id=00011752&fip=205.155.151.30&no=1&seite=117

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I know! That detailing is totally what caught my eye...then the red...then the pants...it was love I tell you, LOVE! *grin*

[kass-rants.livejournal.com]

From my knowledge of 16th century sailor's clothing, it doesn't look anything like English or Dutch. I hope that helps to narrow things down.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I agree, that is what I was thinking too. *nod* *nod* But I think it does still look European...not Middle Eastern? Strange...

[alysten.livejournal.com]

They could still be continental, but in an area that had influence from Arabic culture. Maybe along the Mediterranean?

[alysten.livejournal.com]

Possibly Greek or that area?

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I was sorta thinking Mediterranean as well, partly based on the image and partly based on the overall theme of the book (“Augsburg und Nürnberg, Deutschland, Europa, Orient und Afrika”).

[kass-rants.livejournal.com]

It could be a Mediterranean sailor. All I can say for certain is that he doesn't look English or Dutch.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Given that the book seems based all around that region (“Augsburg und Nürnberg, Deutschland, Europa, Orient und Afrika”)I think it is likely that you are correct!

[alysten.livejournal.com]

Ooooo. Those are spiffy. I like the pants. Matt would never wear them, but I love them.

[grlfury.livejournal.com]

i like that he has mickey mouse ears on his feet

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

*chuckle* Yeah, the German shoes from this period make it seem like they all had super-wide duck feet. Maybe they were all secretly into SCUBA?

[virginiadear.livejournal.com]

Those are just the ones you're seeing. The archeological record indicates there were plenty of "ordinary" shoes with sole outlines that wouldn't seem odd to us today, very 21st century 'footprints.' Not all the shoes of the 16th Germanic states had fanned, horned, "bottony," hammerhead-sharks' head, or even just squared-off toe ends. %^P

[virginiadear.livejournal.com]

Absolutely nothing on which to base this except the hat and the facial hair, and even those I can identify only as what give me this impression and nothing I can say with certainty, eastern Mediterranean, perhaps what until relatively recently we knew as Yugoslavia?

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can see where the hat and hair give that impression - especially given what appears to be examples of similar styles of beard and hat in more specific regional dress in other sections of the book. Thanks!

[virginiadear.livejournal.com]

Ah---but does it actually help? Does it answer the question? (We don't know yet, I'm betting.)

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

For me, it does. In that I have some confirmation that this isn't the type of sailor that many of us have seen before...

[virginiadear.livejournal.com]

To the best of my knowledge I haven't seen illustrations of *any* sailors other than the crew of the Mary Rose and those were modern drawings done based on the crew's clothing. This man looks "foreign." As Kass said, not English. I can't say "Not Dutch" because I don't know anything.
He just looks sort of...Eastern but still European, and sort of Mediterranean, too. He just "seems," but beyond that, I gots nuttin'.

[hobbitomm.livejournal.com]

Well, depending on how good a set of images you want,there's the engravings of the near contemporaneous to the Mary Rose 'Cowdray Wall Paintings' Doesn't show a whole lot of detail, but the guy standin on the crows nest of the sunk Mary Rose is certainly a sailor!

http://userweb.port.ac.uk/~fontanad/maryrose/

[virginiadear.livejournal.com]

Tres cool! Thanks very much. I look forward to studying this information over the weekend!

[hobbitomm.livejournal.com]

It's all tremendous luck- the wall paintings were in Coudray Hall, made by Sir someone Brown, to basically record his own part in events. Which is fine. However, entirely randomly, the 'Society of Antiquaries' in the 18th century decided to make engravings of them. Which is just as well because a few years later the building burnt to the ground, destroying the wall paintings.

[virginiadear.livejournal.com]

Wonderful! Thanks for sharing that. I look forward to having a bit more free time at some point over the holiday weekend, to actually *read* through that article.
Thanks again! :-)

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

*tries to stamp down book lust and remember that she can't order "Before the Mast" just because she wants too...*

[hobbitomm.livejournal.com]

*blush*

I have a copy? (If you're semi-broke, 'Preserved by Time' (I think) is a lot lot cheaper, if not anything like as good).

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I am waiting a bit longer and ordering "Before the Mast" and their alwaysalmostreadytobereleased book on ordinance. It was supposed to be out in December of 2008.....*cricket* *cricket* *cricket*

I figure if I am ordering two huge tomes from the Mary Rose Trust, I might as well do it at the same time and save a bit on shipping!

[hobbitomm.livejournal.com]

You should be able to get 'em from Amazon, for free shipping, shouldn't you? I'm also waiting on 'Weapons of Warre'

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Nice to know I am not the only one who is a drooly with anticipation of its release....*grin*

Amazon is certainly an option though.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I just stumbled upon some 'sailor images' link-fu and thought I should spread the love:

http://larsdatter.com/sailors.htm

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I just stumbled upon some 'sailor images' link-fu and thought I should share the love:

http://larsdatter.com/sailors.htm

[jillwheezul.livejournal.com]

So the sailors are wedged between the French and the Flemish in order. I just have to think about where the place name is referring. On the second sailor it says "Karcaroli genant" (known as Karcaroli) Sounds slavic to me. - Maybe Balkan?

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that would follow in with the 'eastern Mediterranean' feeling that folks seem to be getting from the image so far. Having seen images of Dutch and English sailors before, I was struck by some of the differences here (as well as some of the similarities). I was interested to see just how far-and-wide this sort of ‘basic sailing silhouette’ had been adopted.

[hobbitomm.livejournal.com]

My vibe would also be Eastern Med (somewhere between Malta and Istanbul, with the possibility of the Balkans). Certainly the cut of the moustache, and its colour suggests balkans. I wonder, though, whether the trousers might be the wide ottoman ones, just not tucked in, as we usually see them?

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Well, I know Kass has been doing a lot of Turkish research of late, maybe she can answer the Ottoman question...?