Further Saxon Musing...

[hsifeng]

After some tea and a walk with the dogs the other day, I came to a realization (I am sure that kass_rants comments had something to do with it as well):

Sewing the bits of the dress together one step at a time (Brusttuck to shirt, stomacher to Brusttuck bottom, skirt to stomacher bottom) isn't any easier on the thin fabric of the shirts that we see covering the breast and upper backs we are looking at.

Ermmm....

OK.

So, back to the drawing board.

Going back to the inspiration image:



I started rethinking the shirt again. What we have hear appears to be a nice, sturdy shirt. It isn't thin and gauzy. It does not appear to be made of the same sort of material that we see in this image:



Or under clothing, such as in this slightly less transparent one:



But (as I believe kass_rantsmentioned in her blog), notice that the sleeves aren't as thin as the overall shirt?

This leads me to theory #2. Basically, take theory #1 - Brusttuck sewn to thicker shirt with sleeves, sewn to stomacher...etc - but add a 'dicky' or underlayer shirt of this lighter fabric. Why would I say 'dicky' at all - clearly my first image of the nekkid lady shows a full shirt? Well, the 'dicky' gauzy shirt top has been a pet theory of mine for awhile now. I don't discount that there may be a full shirt under there. but a dicky that is pinned or tacked in place to keep the various pleats and embroideries all nice and even seems to make sense to me too. It also seems like the care, starching and pressing of a smaller piece like this would make sense - and would help prevent staining by avoiding contact with the underarms and other 'sweaty bits'.

So maybe these are a sort of Halshemd...at least in some cases...

Of course, there are other images where this theory *clearly* does not apply. Nothing pieced about this one, except whatever style of Brusttuck is 'under there':

Comments

[bedpimp.livejournal.com]

There's a shirt in that second picture?

[docryder.livejournal.com]

All those little white lines on her skin are supposed to be tiny pleats or ribs in nearly transparent fabric...

Of course, I'm assuming you're 100% serious and not sarcastic...

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

What doc said....*chuckle* Although in bedpimp's case I am pretty sure he is joking.

[rectangularcat]

why can't it be a partlet?

[kass-rants.livejournal.com]

I think that's what she means by "dicky".

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Yeppers, that is what I mean!

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

What Kass said, I do mean 'partlet' when I say 'dicky'. My bad, I tend to use the terms noninterchangeable in my head depending on the shape of what I am looking at...

[kass-rants.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Did you see that image on my site of the woman taken in adultery? She's clearly wearing an opaque underbust shift over a transparent shift that covers her bust. I don't think that's always the arrangement, but it sure explains things like your last image on this page.

I think you're always going to run into problems when sewing heavy things (like a Brustfleck) to a thin thing (like a shift). Have you tried wrapping the Brustfleck around the body like a bustband?

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

No I haven't yet: This is all theoretical musings on my part. I have the material for a dress that I will be making 'some day' (i.e. once the Steuchlein, full skirt apron, second work dress, second set of clothes for hubby, etc. are done) that may end up having a Brusttuck involved. When I do, I will probably use something like a breast band so I get a chance to try this out!

Mostly I am running through this as a mental exercise in 'just how much effort does one of these take to get into in real-time and who the hell would have one'. There are *lots* of fahnlein's out there where the women wear this sort of gown on a regular basis and I get a bit boggled sometimes at the 'Of course, they could have owned one of these' attitudes.

I do recall the image you are referring to, with the gauzy breast section: I think it is representative of the type of Saxon dress we are discussing. Then again, there are so many 'types' to this dress: High necked, low necked, high and low backed. Off the shoulder, on the shoulder...*grin*

The successful recreations (ones that looked like the paintings) that I have seen in person and involving Brusttuck were made by Electra, and were all on thin young women. These also weren't the 'typical' Saxon Princess dresses - they were nice wool dresses with an insert to cover the chest as a modesty panel. The Brusttuck/Brustfleck's weren't bands, but then they weren't low backed dresses either. She used fabric pieces that were fitted to fill in the 'empty' sections at the breast level in the bodice, and I seem to remember that they were secured with hooks-and-eyes. Of course, this is also a case of someone 'making what they see in the painting' and not necessarily reconstruction.

Thank you for minding my prattle and helping to direct traffic on my though process, I need the help! *grin*

Quick reply -- I'll come back later when I have a break...

[kass-rants.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! Thank you for posting about this. You have no idea how I long for someone to bounce ideas off and how rare it is to find someone to do mental gymnastics with. =)

Re: Quick reply -- I'll come back later when I have a break...

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Actually, if you wouldn't mind: What has been your thought on the 'brest band' vis 'fitted insert that is mounted in place' ideas for the Brusttuck/Brustfleck? I am curious if there was anything in particular that swayed you toward the band vs. the insert (like maybe some ideas you had from looking at other types of extant pieces)?

Re: Quick reply -- I'll come back later when I have a break...

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

BTW - I *totally* know what you mean about needing a partner at the mental gym: It is one of the reasons that I love LJ so much! There is a whole crew of you!

Re: Quick reply -- I'll come back later when I have a break...

[kass-rants.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to reply to this when I'm not buried in work. If I don't get to it today or tomorrow, please remind me! I have some ideas to share but I can't switch tracks just now.

Re: Quick reply -- I'll come back later when I have a break...

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

No problem honey, I will keep the reminder and poke you as necessary...*grin*

[shadowd1.livejournal.com]

if you're using that second image as a reference source, not that i care, but wouldn't you be breaking your rules on allegorical images?

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

For this example I am not worried about it: There are lots of images where there is a thin and gauzy 'Halshemd' of some sort visible (just not *this much of it*). The level of gauzy for this image is supported by the presence of veils in other paintings that are just as see-throug. The only 'artistic license' question I have here is the whole shirt being made out of it.

Then again, there may be other examples of whole shirts that were this thin - I haven't checked: I would need to have a lot more access to inventories with shirts made of this sort of cloth in them to draw any documentable conclusions.