15th CENTURY UNDIES!!!

[hsifeng]

I love Katrin Kania's blog, "a stitch in time". Today she posted this lovely info on extant German undies from the 16th c.

Yeppers.

Undies.

*i <3 extant undies*



Aaaanyway. There is an English language article available as well here.

Just filing this all away for future reading and reference.

EDITED 7/6/11: And here is jillwheezul talking about the German language article on these.

EDITED 7/18/12: Due to a recent set of English language articles on this topic, interest has swung back round again on this find. mmcnealy just posted this tidbit on FB. http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/projekte_forschung/textilien-lengberg/medieval-lingerie-from-lengberg-castle-east-tyrol.html

Comments

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

Trouble is, there’s no actual indication that they’re women’s undies, and not men’s undies. The article I has includes an engraving with a man wearing undies very similar to these. But still! I’m dying to see the rest of the information, especially on the "bras"!

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Oh noes!

I am not saying that this is an image of women's undies (unless there is a German-reader out there to contest this statement with infomration from the German article).

As for me, I still need to chisle out some time to read these bitties. I just love that I have an image of extant undies (of either gender!).

Because I am weird.

But you knew that...

;)

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

From what I riddled out, they did DNA testing! Which was "inconclusive", naturally...

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

*chuckle*

You mean a set of undies that got stuffed into a cramped space and then had the detrius of a few centuries fall on top of them yielded less than perfect DNA tests? Shocking!

*grin*

[alysten.livejournal.com]

The research on the bras will be very interesting.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I am looking forward to reading it when I have more than 2 minutes to string together at a time....*eye roll*

[cantarella.livejournal.com]

I daresay these are men's underpants. They look a lot like the ones that can be seen on mid to late 15th century paintings (St. Sebastian is one of the best underwear models ever).

The german article says that they could have been worn by either gender, but I still think they're men's pants, since I haven't yet seen a period illustration of a woman in underpants.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Well shoot.

I was hoping for something more definitive than, “Yeah, these are men’s underpants and we think women wore undies too.” The vast majority of the images that show women pulling on any sort of underpants are highly allegorical (“Who Wears The Pants In This Family?”). The others tend to be women wearing items more of the ‘two piece bathing suit’ variety shown in the image of the German article, and generally engaged in some sort of competitive event. So, who knows if those are really undies, or simply a costume worn for physical competitions?

Damn, damn, damnity damn.

Still gonna sit down and read these. Might find something therein to cheer me up.

*chuckle*

[cantarella.livejournal.com]

The ladies in the two piece bathing suits are actually Roman ladies at the bathhouse. It's a Roman fresco, not medieval.

Yes, the only late medieval pictures with ladies in/with underpants I know of at the moment are the allegorical ones. And these can't be taken as sources, since they show the world "topsy-turvy".

I am quite curious as to what becomes of the "bra" things they have found, once they had time to examine them properly.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I am looking forward to this read!

In the meantime, the images I am thinking of (where women are in sporting events wearing abbreviated outfits that include ‘undies’ - not the ones where they are fighting with a man for dominance) are from some of the Peasant Festival woodcuts from the 16th C. I don’t know if there are any zoomable versions of these images online (they come from a variety of artists all over the period, it seems to have been a popular theme) where the details of the ladies in a race are clear enough to discern. If I recall correctly, the ones I saw this in were available in the Single Leaf Woodcut series and/or “Peasants, Warriors and Wives”.

*scratches head*

You know, I’d really like that photographic memory I ordered for Christmas to show up.

*chuckle*

[starcannibal.livejournal.com]

I keep getting a file is broken and cannot be repaired msg for both of the links drat!!

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

You at work or at home? I can try e-mail these to you if you'd like?

[starcannibal.livejournal.com]

at work, I will try later this evening first. Thanks :)

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Understood, lemme know if you need an assist!

[margorose.livejournal.com]

It's also possible that this is a feminine hygiene apparatus, to hold a pad in place.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Totally possible (especially as I have not yet read the article and it's entire findings). However, these are identified as underpants (Unterhose) in the original German article and match up closely with images of underpants from various historical woodcuts (where the image is about underwear and not feminine hygine).

*shrug*

[cantarella.livejournal.com]

That's possible, yes. The article says that the pants are triple layered linen in the crotch area, which would make a bit of a pad already.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Interesting, I would love to get an Abegg Foundation style report on these; see if any of those layers were identifiable as repairs or if they were original components of the garment. I am trying to imagine how many layers the crotch of my undies would end up with if I had to patch them rather than throwing them out when they wore through.

Um. If that was more information than you were looking for as to the nature of my lingerie collection, my apologies.

/shifty eyes.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Oh holy heck! I may actually get my Abegg Foundation wish at some point it seems... "Im Zuge der wissenschaftlichen Aufarbeitung der textilen Funde aus der Gewölbezwickelfüllung wurde eine Kooperation der ABT mit dem Museum und der Textilrestaurierungswerkstätte der Abegg-Stiftung in Riggisberg in der Schweiz initiiert."

*does a little jig*

That would be A.W.E.S.O.M.E.!

[cantarella.livejournal.com]

I LOVELOVE the Abegg Foundation.
(No, I won't tell you that it only takes me an hour to get there... that would be mean, wouldn't it? ;-p)

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

No, I won't tell you that it only takes me an hour to get there... that would be mean, wouldn't it? ;-p

*sticks fingers in ears*

Lalalalalalalala! I can't heeeear you...

*pouts*

Seriously thought, that is very cool!

[pinkdiamond.livejournal.com]

! ! !

Just.. !


And here I a getting excited about finally being able to access the libraries of my own city.... ;) Our region re-merged cities back into one and now I am able to get books out from the library closest to me ;)

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

THIS IS SO COOL!!!!

Yes, very much men's undies, and they tie only on one side, just like I suspected!!!!! SQUEEEEE

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

OMG! After all the posts you have made over the years that have induced the “SQUEEEE!” reaction in me, I am tickled pink to return the favor (even if it is only me reposting someone, posting an article). *chuckle*

[operafantomet.livejournal.com]

Wow, awesomeness. Thanks for sharing.

Cantarella, I agree about such small panties: I haven't seen any in period depictions either. But Italian 16th century women did every now and them wear drawers under their clothes. Duchess Eleonora di Toledo in Florence is listed with a pair of crimson taffeta in her guardaroba, while duchess Giulia Varano of Urbino had a pair of green velvet. There is also several period depictions and surviving items of 16th century drawers:

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/workbox/extdraw.htm
http://aneafiles.webs.com/renaissancegallery/italian.html

But these are of course much larger than the tiny white thing above!

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

Totally men's undies. See Durer's The Men's Bath for the exact same style.

But WICKED COOL nonetheless!

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

*nods in agreement*

As mmcnealy pointed out, this extant set helps to show that the drawing are literal when they demonstrate this style of undies as being tied on only one side.

Very. Cool.

:D

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

Of course, only one knot to come undone at an inconvenient time instead of two!

on a separate note

[claughter713.livejournal.com]

having the "curious" posting running next to undies is KILLING me....

Re: on a separate note

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

What? How can Dean giving a speculative look when being involved in a discussion of undies *not* be a good thing?

XD