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hsifengFrom Barry Siler (Tue May 11, 2010 10:29 am):
Looking at DeGheyn and other references for the late 16thC, early 17thC, bandoliers dangling with bottles were in common and widespread use.
With the introduction of the musket in 1522, was the bandolier with charge bottles introduced simultaneously? Or did the first musketeers use a single powder container as did calivermen/arquebusiers? At the 1525 Battle of Pavia, did the Spanish musketeers have bandoliers with bottles? If not simultaneous with the first use of muskets, about when were bandoliers with bottles bedecking musketeers?
-Even a pikeman is curious to know...
Barry
I had responded to this post with the following observations regarding the use of bandoleers and/or powder horns (sometimes either or, sometimes both):
In my review of images of Landsknechts (early 16th C) with harquebus, it appears that not all black powder users possessed cartridges *and* primer bottles – many had only one or the other, but not necessarily both.
Prior thoughts and images from my blog:
From Nick Worthington (Tue May 11, 2010 10:24 pm):
Regarding those early style bands of chargers - many years ago now, I made up one using turned wooden cases (No longer available) that were about 2 in. tall and 3/4. in wide. Darned things held 110 grains, which made a hella boom. I strung them to a narrow over the shoulder strap by drilling a small hole in the bottom and top, using a single cord to attach to the strap. I used fine waxed sennett braided cord, and knotted it under the bottom. The top could slide up and down on the single strand. The whole thing worked quite well, and looked a lot like the pictures. Only real problem was that the thin wood was fragile.
Regarding ball bags, I think in the discussion on your blog post, both hypotheses may be true. A lot of artists may not have included them - I just looked at the English shot from Image of Ireland, and they do not have pouches, even though they clearly have large flasks and primers. In the early pictures were the soldier has a large "civilian" style pouch, that may be where they kept them - would be interesting to see if there are such pouches on anyone who does not have a gun. In Barrett's Theoric and Practic of Modern Warres, he describes the shot as having ball bags of leather or canvas, and definitely as a separate item. The one you discussed in the picture on your blog definitely seems to be of the style that the caliver men in De Gheyn, and the cavalry, use. Those have a tab that extends below the pouch, which is pierced with holes to allow a hook on the back of the flask to hook into it - that's what I had at ALC. It's yet another item that would be interesting to try to trace its earliest appearance.
Of course, in the period, and up into the 19th century, for really fast shooting with loose ball, they used to carry the ball in their cheek. Not recommended these days though. Still no cure for lead poisoning :.)
Nick W.
From Gordon Frey (Tue May 11, 2010 3:31 pm):
Barry, et al:
As Nick noted, there seem to have been national preferences for either bandoliers or flasks. The Spaniards had a definite preference for flasks, and until at some point in the 30-Years War I find no reference to Spaniards using bandoliers at all. I have never come across anything but listings of "frasco y frasquillo" in the New World manifests I have looked over, so my suspicion is that it was a pretty universal tendency among Spaniards.
If you look at the Lant Roll of Sir Philip Sidney's funeral procession, you will notice that the Musketeers are using bandoliers, while the arquebusiers/caliver men are using flasks. And though DeGheyn notes that either way was considered to be serviceable, from what I can gather, among the English, Dutch, French and Germans the trend at least was for Musketeers to use bandoliers, while Arquebusiers/Caliver-men used flasks.
For the various forms of "Mounted Shotte", flasks and porte-tasches were standard, while it was only among post-1600 Dragoons that the bandolier was used. (At least that is the earliest representation of such a combination, in Walhausen's "Kriegkunst zu Pferde" of 1616). Since they were only using the horse as a mode of transportation, the rattling of the chargers probably wouldn't have been quite the issue that they would have been while moving out at the trot or better...
Anyway, that is the situation as far as I know, right now... subject to change!
Cheers!
Gordon
