Things that Make You Go *BOOM* (Part the Second)

[hsifeng]

The hubby and I are currently waiting on two guns from master gunsmith, Dale Shinn. For those who aren’t familiar with Dale: This is a man who makes everything on his guns, down to the springs. He does not make his own barrels, because he has them professionally cast for safety reasons. Dale’s guns look like they were just picked up out of a museum case – and some of his pieces are actually *in* museum cases.
*doing a little dance of glee at the thought of owning one*

 

Needless to say, there is a waiting list (I actually got on that list before my husband and I got together), but we are slowly approaching our project completion date at last! With any luck, Dale won't get in any more car accidents between now and then! *knocks on wood*

 

The pieces we are getting are as follows:

 

1)      2 sets of brass cartridges (10 each)

2)      2 “doughnut” German powder flasks (each with it's own set of decorations)

3)      1 brass-barreled octagonal-to-round button lock

4)      1 steel-barreled matchlock with 'brass knuckles' sear guard

 

The cartridges are one-of-a-kind pieces, based on both safety and Dale’s knowledge of the period. They are *not* the standard ECW wooden cartridges (also called apostles by some). We don’t do ECW, we do 16^th C; early 16^th C.

 

 

 

A lot of folks doing early period still get the ECW cartridges because a) there is nothing out there on the market that is closer to period, b) the ECW cartridges work and have been field tested extensively, c) they are safe, d) they are easy to keep track of and e) they are conveniently tied together to keep them from loosing pieces.
 

 
 

Now to be honest, the cartridges we are getting are a ‘hybrid’ rather than a “straight out of the woodcut” reproduction of German black-powder storage vessels. 


 

The caps will not be attached *directly* to the bandoleer in the manner that the 16th C versions seem to - for both safety considerations, and because the later period ‘stringers’ help you to keep track of empty vs. full cartridges and prevent loss of caps/bases. They also have a bit of a 'flare' to their bases. I am not honestly sure where Dale got this from, but I like it and I trust his research (he's been doing guns for about 40 years after all...).

 

Right now, the cartridges are the only piece of the order we have in hand. We are hoping to see the leather smiths who will be helping us out with the bandoleer/patch pouch production this weekend.

That being the case, I want to organize some thoughts on these leather bits of our kit.

 

Namely, hubby is insistent that we have to have patch pouches, and I can’t find evidence of them in any images of gunners from the 16^th C.!

 

Here is what I have found that *may* be a patch pouch…

 

 

Lower right hand corner, under the powder horn; I can’t tell what it is attached to, or how the horn is attached to it. But that is the *first* pouch I have seen in relation to any black-powder item from the period.

 

So, my current plan is to get a thin leather bandoleer strap made, with a small pouch like this one at the joint in the strap/over my hip. My ‘doughnut’ powder flask can be tied to the same point, and I’ll end up with something similar to the arrangement in the Bildindex image.

 

Then again, if anyone has any *other* images of leather black-powder gear from this period that they would like to share that may change my mind…feel free!

On another note, hubby had indicated that at least a couple of the cartridges from the 10 cartridge sets should be hung on the 'back side' of the bandoleer. However, I am not sure I have seen this in 16th C German images. I know that there was a detail shot of a large color painting that showed the back of some

Harquebusiers...anyone know where that is?

From the ECW era:



Of course, the casual shooting scenes I have don't show ANY kit except the guns...*le sigh*

Comments

[kass-rants.livejournal.com]

I haven't read your whole post, so forgive me if this sounds stupid. Have you looked for a supplier in Germany? I ask because I sell a lot of German patterns in Germany -- some to reenactors and A LOT to people involved in what they jokingly call "reenLARPment". They have historical LARPs there that would make our reenactments look farb-o-licious!

I mean, these guys made an exact replica of Da Vinci's tank! For a LARP! I find it hard to believe that they would buy ECW bottles...

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Honestly I haven't made contact with any landsknecht reenactors in Germany...partly a language barrier issue and partly because I know the local artisans.

If I can find the information, I'd rather have the gear made locally.

But if anyone know of any black powder crafts folks who do 16th C German, I would be all over that.

Trust me, if Todd's Stuff did this sort of thing, I would already be on order. *grin* Then again, I guess I could ask... http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/

[kass-rants.livejournal.com]

If you know Tod's Stuff... Do you know Paul Meekins in the UK? He owns Paul Meekins Books, but also Bandoliers for Musketeers. Most of his bandoliers are ECW era, but I know he has done others. Every bandolier he does is custom and he makes only museum replicas. They are completely awesome and you'd be supporting a small business person and an artisan.

The issue there is that he used to make them with his best friend -- one did the leather work and the other the wood, or something -- and his friend died a few years ago. I know he stopped making them for a while because he wasin mourning. But I know he's still got his website for them so he must be taking orders: http://www.bandoliers.co.uk/

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info sweetie! I had heard of Paul Meekins Books, but didn't know he did other stuff too. I will have to contact him to see if he has any information on German gear from the early 16th C.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I finally wrote Mr. Meekins! *fingers crossed*

Black Powder images! YAY

[amatilda.livejournal.com]

Hey Cherylyn, I've been browsing the Osprey books the last few evenings, and I found 4 images that you may find useful. Two of which are modern artwork (by Graham Turner). One is an oil painting and two are woodcuts. Here you go...

This has a gunner showing the cartridges on his back. This is taken from the Osprey Pavia 1525 book, page 42

This has 2 gunners with their cartridges handing from the skinny strap. Taken from the same Osprey Pavia 1525 book, page 66.

This is a nice oil painting that shows the guy who’s slightly blurry on the far left has a dark strap with cartridges hanging across his chest. Also, the soldier second from the right has a strap across his shoulders with cartridges hanging. Oh yeah, taken from same Osprey book Pavia 1525, page 19

This has the front soldier showing off his back and you can see the strap with cartridges hanging there. Also, check out the second guy, he’s got a nice powder flask like yours and Chris’s flasks! Taken from Triumph of Maximilian in the Osprey book Armies of the German Peasants’ War 1524-26, page 33

This is a studly soldier! Anyways, check out his nice powder flask and those sexy cartridges hanging on the strap around his neck. Taken from Triumph of Maximilian in the Osprey book Armies of the German Peasants’ War 1524-26, page 33

Anyways, there you go! If I find more, I will post them for you as well!
xoxo

Re: Black Powder images! YAY

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Thank you honey! Chris pulled out the Peasant Wars book after you called and showed me the guys with the 'necklace' style bandoleers. I don't know if I agree with the author about the powder horn being 'attached' to the bandoleer on your studly man (last image), I think that his powder is hanging on a shorter strap around his neck, given that the balance would be off if it was hanging from a center point on the flask...and randomly dumping powder is *bad*!

*grin*

I have seen images of the cross-body bandoleers in our period, and frankly I think they are safer! I really need to track down that image of the guys in pink and yellow with the cross-body bandoleers!

I am always curious though - where the heck are these boys carrying their shot? None of these images seem to show shot bags anywhere, and I don't think they have the shot hidden in their sleeves....*le sigh*

Also, did you not the gunner in the second color painting? Look familiar? This was the inspiration piece for Ken Dougherty's first garb!

Re: Black Powder images! YAY

[amatilda.livejournal.com]

As far as shot bags go, I don't see too many either. But if you look at the first woodcut, your soldier in the front has a pouch on his hip that I'd say has shot in it. Since you don't see where he'd carry it elsewhere, I would assume that he has shot in there. :)
And yeah, the "studly man" has a nice powder flask, but I agree with you. I don't think it's hanging from the same strap that the cartridges are. I think its on a shorter strap, it looks sort of rolled or maybe rope, that's right at the base of his chainmaille, above his breastplate. Who knows?

Re: Black Powder images! YAY

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I am working out my plans for the cording on our priming flasks right now (see my post later today for more images). I think we're going to go forward with our shot bags attached to our bandoleers, simply because that makes the most sense, can be documented within 100 year - God, I *hate* the span there - and is a good way of dealing with the fact that so many of the images *don't* show any shot pouch. It's not like they were all firing blanks!

Right….?

Perhaps we could chalk up the “missing” bags to the idea that artists may have simply overlooked or oversimplified them (like they did on the rigs for the cartridges so often). Guns were still a newish thing at this point, so someone drawing a gunner may have just not recognized or detailed out their pouch…which is actually an argument for making it small and integrated into the overall rig...

On the other hand, we could put a pouch on the back of our priming flasks like there are in the bildindex image I have in my original post: However, the thought of wearing a modified claymore mine on my hip isn't really that appealing to me. *chuckle*

[amatilda.livejournal.com]

OOH! I just remembered that I should have something from our trip to Leeds.
So, I looked through my photos and found this little ditty for you...
From the Battle of Pavia painting at Leeds:

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

*does the happy dance!*

Thank you honey, this is very much like the 'half-remembered' example I was thinking of. In fact, the image wandering around in my minds eye may even be from another section of this same painting - the details seem very simular.

*HUGS*