Research Cheater

[hsifeng]

O Great LJ Hivemind...

I come to you with a request for information. A friend has recently been being pestered to produce evidence showing that 16^th C German men *did not* wear netted gold cauls under their battle helmets.

My initial thought upon hearing this was, “Are you crazy? Who would wear an item THAT EXPENSIVE under their helm?” I mean… gold…netted…re-embroidered over…? Are you nuts?

My second thought was, “I thought we normally tried to prove that someone *did* wear an item rather than the opposite? I mean, prove to me that 16^th C German men didn’t wear fairy wings under their backplates!”

*eye roll*

Then I realized; I have seen dozens of Landsknecht re-enactors wear these things around during the day while in their breastplates over the years. I don’t think I’ve seen any of them smash a helmet down over the top…but maybe that is where this guy got the initial idea. OK, so it may just be an issue of monkey see, monkey do. As for actual evidence of this taking place in the 16^th C on the other hand, if there are 16^th C images of un-helmed but armored men wearing these in portraiture, my guess would be that the images in question are “I’m Showing Off My Armor” shots; the addition of the “gelbhaube”/caul as a way to enhance the overall look-at-me-and-my-pimp-gear image, rather than to indicate that the caul was part of an armor rig in some way.

Then again, I don’t know that this particular re-enactment-ism has ever been really researched.

So I put it to ya’ll; anyone out there have any details (wardrobe inventory items, images of extant woolen arming caps, narrative descriptions, etc.) that might help clarify this issue with some data?

Comments

[zoccolaro.livejournal.com]

Well, 16th C. Germany encompasses quite a wide range of styles - I assume that you're referring mainly to the first third (possibly up to the first half) or so. I don't do much German, but you might want to take a look at the following:

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/ausgaben/thumbnailseite.html?id=00016005&seite=1

Lots of great pictures of early century Germans in armor, but nary a gold caul to be seen.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

*files away for review later this afternoon*

THANK YOU! And yes, I am guessing that most folks (and probably the gentleman in question too) think of Landsknecht as somehow exclusive to the first 1/3 oe 1/2 of the 16th century. So I will concentrate on that same period.

*grin*

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Ah! It's the Bavarian Dukes book! I love this one...

*dives in*

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

Note that almost all the images I've seen of men wearing gold cauls with armor are either 1) saints or 2) very wealthy men.

So I wouldn't expect it to be an item worn by common soldiers.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I am 100% with you on this. The next question being; what class of soldier wore which types of armor? Brestplates are seen more than suits; but how often do we see helms/helmets?

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

No fair asking questions I can't answer at work! (Just wait until I get home to my image library!!!!) =P

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

This is exactly how I felt when this item landed in my in-box this morning. *chuckle*

What this discussion needs is some image links!

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

Hairnets (gold and otherwise)
• Durer men’s bath (um, no clothes so maybe not so helpful…)
• Durer’s Paumgartner Altarpiece (saints on both wings, wearing armor but no helmets)
• Durer Knight and Landsknecht (no armor)
• Cranach’s Martyrdom of St Catherine (Hairnet, no armor)
• Baldung’s Martyrdom of Saint Sebastian (two hairnets, one under the red hat)
• Baldung –Count Christoph I of Baden Munich (Possible hairnet under a hat)
• Cranach portrait of a man in an embroidered cap (not a soldier)
• Burgkmair – Portrait of Jacob Fugger (not a soldier)
• Jorg Breu (possible hairnet on the guy in the upper left)

Although they’re not common, I have been able to find a fair number of helmets on soldiers, but you can’t tell if they are wearing anything (coif, schlappe, haub) under the helmet. Almost all of the soldiers wearing helmets were also wearing full armor (gorget, breastplate, pauldrons, vambraces, and cuisses), so I would assume that they’re probably officers.

Not sure what conclusions you can draw from these. Images of hairnets show up in all sorts of places, and on all sorts of people. And as someone else mentioned, I have no idea how you'd prove a negative.

Oh, and while the Saint Max web site appears to be down at the moment, they have an article there about Landsknecht hairstyles.

Re: What this discussion needs is some image links!

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Thank you for reminding me about the Landsknecht hairstyles link at St. Max. I will have to go check that out when their site it back up!

Almost all of the soldiers wearing helmets were also wearing full armor (gorget, breastplate, pauldrons, vambraces, and cuisses), so I would assume that they’re probably officers.


This is what I was thinking as well; that most helmets are on folks in full armor and that full armor tends to be pricey. Even so, wearing a gold caul under a helm seems like taking a Porche to a motocross event. Someone might do it, but it isn't likely...

Re: What this discussion needs is some image links!

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten about the hairstyles link myself. But it came up somewhere recently. The reason I mentioned it was because I seem to recall that the majority of the hairstyles were short. *Checks my PDF backup of the site* Yep, the vast majority of hairstyles are short. Too short to require a hair net.

Which would make sense, as short hair is easier to care for. Especially when you've got large numbers of people living in close quarters. Less lice etc.

Re: What this discussion needs is some image links!

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

*psst* Could you pass me that PDF backup? I can message you with my e-mail address if needed....

;)

Re: What this discussion needs is some image links!

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

It's huge (1,200 pages, 50 MB file), so e-mail might choke on it. But we can try if you want!

Re: What this discussion needs is some image links!

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Sent you a message...

[etaine-pommier.livejournal.com]

Flipped through my image library - briefly - and didn't find any examples of goldhauben under, or even with, helmets. Doesn't mean they didn't, of course, just that I couldn't find an image in my search.

Arming caps of leather and wool, yes, but nothing netted. (Which would be pretty uncomfortable and impractical under a helmet anyway.)

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

The argument seems to be running along the lines of, "Well, there are these pictures of guys in full armor with netted hats on their heads and helmets laying about nearby. Ergo; those netted hats must be worn under their armor. Logical fallacies abound with this line of reasoning (see my notes above about ‘pimping ones portraiture’) but the one thing I can’t shake is the idea that German (and Italian) men seemed to dig on the long haired look and that controlling those lovely locks might be easier with a net than with the sorts of leather/woolen arming caps that I normally associate with helmets.

*Hummm…*

Thoughts? Feelings? Do you happen to have any of those images of helmets with leather/woolen caps scanned? Care to share? *grin*

[etaine-pommier.livejournal.com]

I suppose the first logical fallacy is: you cannot prove a negative :-) I tend to agree with you re: pimping ones portraiture, plus any images of Saints are allegorical and therefore suspect - how many saints of the saints depicted are concurrent and actually wore armor, after all?

My initial thought about using netted caps to control long hair would be to experiment - my experience is that long hair not only distributes unevenly in a netted caul, it mats when pressure is applied. (I braid my own hair to go under my gelbhaube and beret for exactly that reason.) So using it to control hair under helmet seems like it would result in uncomfortable rat's nests. Do we know anyone with the trifecta of long hair, a documentable netted haube*, and a helmet that would be willing to try it and see what happens?

No scans (you know how bad I am with scans and photos!)

* Not the mesh they sell at JoAnn's, please. Which, btw, I have totally been known to use in a pinch, and which the RMS used for *years.*

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

I suppose the first logical fallacy is: you cannot prove a negative :-)

Exactly!

I am going to go fishing to see if my friend can put together the net haube/hair/helm combo. She certainly has the resources (long-haired jouster husband and full costume shop). If she gets to reproduce this idea I will come back with information!

[jillwheezul.livejournal.com]

Laughs. It would be interesting to see if we can find a price for one of these so we can compare it to other equipment. It doesn't seem practical from both comfort and the damage that will come from wearing it under a helm. Clearly they are a luxury item, probably regulated by sumptuary law although the old spoils of war sort of "documentation" may serve to further the story.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

The closest I have seen to documentation on the cost of these items in the past was Katrin Kania's research into netting cauls and her estimations on the time it would take to reproduce the item she was looking at here:

http://togs-from-bogs.blogspot.com/2009/04/hairnets-part-v.html#links

Her words, "When calculating the same overall size for the tiny-meshed net, I'd need about 16 times the amount of single meshes for the tiny net (since there would fit 16 meshes into one large mesh). Which means 16 times 30 hours, that is 480 hours just for the base of the hairnet! Add to that the embroidery, which I'd guess takes at least as long (maybe one of the embroidering people can pitch in here) - that would leave you at roughly one thousand hours of work just for a puny hairnet."

As Katrin points out, in modern terms that is roughly six months of work.

*blinks eyes*

Of course, an inventory item estimating the value of one of these would be lovely. Do you happen to remember if there were any listed in the Textiler Hausrat? I could then talk to my armor friends and come up with a comparison in prices between the HAT and the FULL SUIT to get an idea of just how nuts this might have been.

The sumptuary laws are another resource; with the possible value of these items I would be sort of shocked if they weren't regulated in some way.