Pull Those Pants UP!

[hsifeng]

 

OK,

 

For years I have been coached to believe that German wore their pants with high waists (or at least “above the natural waistline, and certainly higher than most modern men are comfortable with”) during the 16^th century. This assertion appeared to be borne out in the art from the period. For example, from the “German Single Leaf Woodcuts 1500-1550”, Max Geisberg & Walter Strauss:

 

 

And from the back:


 

So today I was trolling through the new-and-improved-but-stinky-for-downloading-images bildindex,  when I was struck by what appeared to be low waist in several extant pairs of pants. This got me curious, so I did some more digging into my own image archives and on several other sites. What I found didn’t jibe with what I have always thought was an accurate statement regarding the height of men’s pants in this period.

 

 

 
Same pair in yellow above, from the back:


 

Look at where the codpiece lands in relation to the waistline in the woodcuts. Now look at where it lands in the extant pants.

 

What gives?

Comments

[bedpimp.livejournal.com]

Does this mean we're going to need to make another pants pattern?

I'm not sure I can deal with another weekend of my junk in your face while you poke me with pins quite yet. ;-)

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

Nope! Kass and Katherine are working hard to un-spin my head = see their comments if you want a full explaination of why we don't have to make you a new pattern. *grin*

[scott moore (from livejournal.com)]

Well, Kass and Katherine also nailed what I was going to say that 20-30 yrs does make a difference. I would also like to point out that comparing military fashion (the woodcuts) with civilian (silk and velvet) fashion is likewise problematic. Whoever wore those extant pieces were very likely *not* running about in muddy ditches, bending down into a defense against horse. :)

And, finally, two extant pieces does not a pattern make. Even if these were from the 1520s and were identified as military, two counter examples does not overthrow the many examples in woodcuts, paintings, tapestries and sculpture. It would, however, be worth raising so folks can take a look and we all can be better informed.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

“It would, however, be worth raising so folks can take a look and we all can be better informed.”

Which is precisely why I did so! I figured that either a) information would surface on the dates/origins of these extant pieces, b) other folks would start pulling out similar example to add to the head scratching or c) a combination of the two.

I have two goals here: To not make assumptions on things, just because I’ve been told that they are true. To try and encourage dialogue.

Plus, I sometimes come up with “WTH” moments without the time to explore the research in greater detail on my own. That’s when I turn the Community of Fellow History Geeks to see what they come up with.

Certainly, military and civilian fashion isn’t always the same (even though one may follow the other). Certainly a span of 20-30 years is going to make a difference in what people are wearing. Certainly it is hard to tell if artists drew “true to life” or followed an idealized image.

But playing around in the Petri dish of though is always rewarding!