hsifeng: (Landsknecht)
[personal profile] hsifeng

For those out there with a better grasp of basic pattern shapes in the 16th C - any thoughts on what the basic 'cloak' shape is in these images?




It appears to be somthing other than a rectangle to me (given the 'longer/knotted' corners). Perhaps a trapazoid, or two long triangles attached to a square body base?




Up next, hoods!


(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 01:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] virginiadear.livejournal.com
No; square or rectangular is what came first to my mind.
And the second thing that came to my mind (as I was scrolling slowly) was, "Isn't that drawing a Durer?" (Why, yes, 'virginiadear,' it is!0

And the last thing is, "Check Kohler, and see if he can't shed some light on this. I KNOW his best thing was Germanic fashions in the Victorian era---it's when he lived, after all---but the guy was German and despite editors and a lot of bad SCA press, not stupid. And he *did* understand cut.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 03:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
We will get draping this weekend (basic rectangle first, modified from there) and see what we get. Sadly, I don't own the Kohler - do you? Any chance you could poke around in there on my behalf?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 03:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] virginiadear.livejournal.com
Yes, I do; the Dover edition. I could and will, but I'm not sure precisely how soon I'll get to do that. In other words, it's at home, and I'm not, so I can't say, "Yeah, give me an hour" or promise "Tomorrow before lunch, my local time."

But I ought to be able to poke around *sometime* tomorrow.
'Kay?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
That would be lovely honey, thank you!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
Be sure to check [livejournal.com profile] mmcnealy's reply before going to the books - she posted a couple of the Kohler images you may be thinking of.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 05:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] virginiadear.livejournal.com
Yep; thought I remembered seeing those in Kohler.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 01:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kass-rants.livejournal.com
The third picture is a totally different shape than the first two. The third looks like a Schaube. The first two look like just wraps of some type. Geometric shapes, like your sketches.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 03:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
Yes, the shape of the body in the third picture is different, but I don't know if it is really a Schaube either; something about the hang of the front corner over the left arm belies that idea to me.

I have a few other 'hooded' examples, one that makes a lot more sense as a cloak:

Image (http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/hsifeng/16th%20C%20Images/Landsknecht%20Cloak/?action=view&current=NNM-vialandsknechtorg3.jpg)

There is also this one - which also has the pleating across the back - but also demonstrates a very un-Schaube-like drape to the front:

Image (http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/hsifeng/16th%20C%20Images/Landsknecht%20Cloak/?action=view&current=NNM-vialandsknechtorg5.jpg)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 01:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bedpimp.livejournal.com
I'm thinking square or rectangular based on the second picture. 60" fabric, draped and folded.

The trim gives the illusion of angles < 90 degrees.

I'm pretty sure we could figure out the lay in about 15 minutes with a couple large safety pins/kilt pins and a wool blanket.

60"x60" fabric

Fold 20"down at the top

Center fabric on back of neck with the 20" on top, facing back

Drape center down arms

Pin at the neck

20" fold might double as a hood


Reminds me a lot of how I used to wear the my great kilt on cold/rainy days.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bedpimp.livejournal.com
Quick and dirty. Not enough light and too many layers of wool, but this should give you an idea of what I was describing (like you really need *my* help) ;-)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 03:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
I think that is a good start actually! We can build on that. Worst case we'll end up with a couple of variations!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bedpimp.livejournal.com
You know, it's not much different than Hans Sanchez from the event this weekend.

I knew it looked familiar!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
A little more fitting, a bit more trim and some details and we're there!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 01:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sstormwatch.livejournal.com
I would suggest starting with a model on a dummy, using basic square or rectangle. Hang it and see how it drapes. Then if it doesn't look right, try the gored portions. I keep finding that many of these garments really are just a rectangle, or very close to it.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bedpimp.livejournal.com
Hey! I resemble that dummy! ;-)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 03:41 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sstormwatch.livejournal.com
I was thinking of a smaller scale dummy, but if you want to volunteer... ;-D

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
*giggle* I knew what you meant, but now I am having visions of dressing the cats in landsknecht cloaks.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sstormwatch.livejournal.com
Now kitty landsknecht cloaks makes me giggle!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
This is likely the route we'll go - it was a gamble with the internet Gods that someone would say, "So-and-so has a sketch of a cloak pattern like that from the 16th C." I was interested to see if someone might have the original pattern type for this extant cloak for example:

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi07903g11c.jpg

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi07903g14c.jpg

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi07904a02c.jpg

Not the same thing exactly, but perhaps a starting point (if there was a known pattern for it).

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alysten.livejournal.com
It flows in a similar way as my shawl. It is more rectangle shaped than square shape. I can get some measurement off it if you're interested.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
Certainly! I think this weekend will involve some scale testing - hopefully we will have results to post on Monday...

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 09:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] togs-from-bogs.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)
Before you fiddle around too much with rectangles and non-rectangles and weird shapes, you might want to try if it's not a halfcircle cloak hitched up high in the back - that would also give two pointy bits in the front, and it was the first thing that I was thinking of on seeing the first pic. And at that time and in that context, I'd more expect a halfcircle than a rectangle (even if that is mostly a gut feeling).

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
After looking at these longer and viewing the pattern examples that [livejournal.com profile] mmcnealy provided, I agree that these are more likely to be circles than rectangles. All the mental fidgeting that I was doing kept coming back to the smooth bottom hem outline of the back and sides of the garment (rather than any strange 'angles' as you would expect in a rectangle draped around a body). Hitching it up higher in the back would probably yield a less extreme version of the first Kohler image that [livejournal.com profile] mmcnealy showed in her reply to this thread.

Thank you for your input! Time to play with muslin and dolls!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 12:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mmcnealy.livejournal.com
I did some quick research this morning and took some pictures.
For the first cloak, I looked up Kohler and he has it as a full circle cloak with long tails. Its an interesting idea, and I think it would probably give the look you're going for.

Another cloak from Kohler a 3/4 circle cloak with arm slits, just for a comparison. Juan de Alcega has a similar cloak for men but without the arm slits.

The cloaks with hoods are *so* Spanish! Here's a picture from Juan de Alcega Cloak and Jerkin of cloth. Its a full circle with a hood. The full circle would give you the fullness needed to be able to put the arms out, and have enough fabric to keep the body warm.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
You, my dear, are THE BOMB! This was exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

So, this weekend will involve some 'scale testing' of these pattern ideas as well as some fabric washing/prep for the full sized models. Excellent!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
By the way, when you said, "The cloaks with hoods are *so* Spanish!" were you saying that you think this style is Spanish in origin, or rahter that de Alcega shows evidence that they were also in Spain?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mmcnealy.livejournal.com
I don't have hard evidence (at this point) that its a style that started out in Spain, but here's my reasoning.

- Weiditz's Trachtenbuch shows Spaniards wearing the style 1520's, and the Germans wearing other styles. The German's from this period (in other sources) that also wear this type of cloak are wearing Spanish styles of doublet and hosen, not German styles of Rocken.

- The cloaks in Alcega that are just referred to as cloaks, have hoods in this style. The ones that don't have hoods are referred to with a descriptive noun, such as A Herreruelo Cloak, or A Bohemian Cloak.

I'll have to think on this some more...

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
Alright, I think I follow your analysis but I am not sure what you mean by ‘German style of Rocken’ vis ‘Spanish style of doublet and hosen’ in a 1520’s context. Any chance you have images that might illuminate me? If you have time to continue chatting about this subject I would love to hear your further thoughts…

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 05:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mmcnealy.livejournal.com
I'll hunt through and try to clarify my thoughts later today, but there seem to be rules by which certain cloaks could be worn with certain styles of men's clothing, and couldn't be worn with other styles. A man might have both in the same wardrobe, but there was a particular protocol in wearing them.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 05:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
Understood! In regards to the cloak with hood being worn with a 'Rock - while the images appears to be post 1520's, there is this one:

Image (http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/hsifeng/16th%20C%20Images/Landsknecht%20Cloak/?action=view&current=NNM-vialandsknechtorg3.jpg)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 05:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] virginiadear.livejournal.com
Thank you, Marion! You've saved me one errand today!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 04:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] landsknecht-po.livejournal.com
I have made one of these (one of your first two images). It is essentially a rectangle. There is a slit up the front to half way where you attach the collar.

I have photos of mine here:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2712/4293420806_96bbf3ba44.jpg (side) and
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2728/4293418088_32593bed49.jpg (front)

I should have used a bit more fabric as it is a bit short (as in it should go further out my arms). I have the source for this too - somewhere. If I find it in the next day or so I'll let you know.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 05:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
Is your design something like this?

Image (http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/hsifeng/16th%20C%20Images/Landsknecht%20Cloak/?action=view&current=rectanglewithnecksplit.jpg)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 05:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] landsknecht-po.livejournal.com
yup, pretty much like that.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 05:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
With or without the "T" slit and added gussets?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] landsknecht-po.livejournal.com
With the "T" slit, but without the gussets.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-21 07:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
Understood! You mentioned looking up your source information - if you have a desire to do so I would love to see it!

Hi! This is Jonas Samuelsson of Landsknecht.org

Date: 2011-08-23 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jonas samuelsson (from livejournal.com)
How did it work out?
From: [identity profile] hsifeng.livejournal.com
*grin* Never got beyond the mini-mock-up stage. However, I do have plans to revive the project this winter and will be sure to post info as I get things done!

;)

Profile

hsifeng: (Default)
hsifeng

June 2015

S M T W T F S
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
2122232425 2627
282930    

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios